The Style & Vibes Podcast
The Style & Vibes Podcast
Music Industry Insights with Ineffable Records' Diego Herrera
Diego Herrera's journey from Costa Rica to the United States is a captivating story of cultural fusion. Raised in the rise hip-hop, punk rock alongside reggae and dancehall in Costa Rica, Diego's unique upbringing laid the groundwork for his dynamic career in the music industry. As the director of business development at Ineffable Records, Diego shares personal anecdotes about his dual life across continents and how it influenced his musical tastes and professional trajectory.
From Diego's early days on college radio at KFJC to his behind-the-scenes work at Pandora, his path reflects the essential yet often overlooked roles that ensure a seamless listener experience. The episode sheds light on the intricacies of library maintenance and metadata management, underscoring their importance in curating content that fills gaps in the Caribbean music catalog. As the music industry undergoes rapid transformation, Diego discusses the evolving roles of both labels and artists, highlighting the need for strategic collaboration and the impact of technology and social media platforms like TikTok.
This episode is for the music lovers, a great discussion that blends personal stories with industry insights, illustrating the universal and unifying power of music.
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Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of the Style and Vibes podcast with yours truly. If you are new here, welcome to the family. If you are coming back, welcome back family. And I haven't done a podcast in a while with a guest, so I'm really honored and excited to welcome today Diego Herrera. So Diego is the director of business development at Ineffable Records, but he also has done some work with Pandora and I really want to get into his career path and he just told me he's from Costa Rica, so we're gonna get into all the things about Diego. Welcome Diego, welcome to the family.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much and I am also honored and excited to be here speaking with you. Like you didn't check, checking for this podcast for a long time and just everything you do, so you know. Thanks so much for having me on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, another digital connection. I feel like we've been following each other for a while and just haven't had the chance to one meet in person and two connect offline. So I'm so excited that we are doing this today, but you were telling me that you are from Costa Rica. So I'm so excited that we are doing this today, but you were telling me that you are from Costa Rica. So let's go back to Costa Rica. Tell me how you grew up and how you came to the States.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so born in Costa Rica. You know, both my parents are from there and I am, you know, first generation immigrant. Interestingly enough, my, my parents, like came over and my sister, my older sister, was born here in the states and then, when they moved back, I was born there and then they said, well, we got to get back to the states. So we went back to the states eventually, yeah, and then you know, kind of life was just, you know, living between two worlds, like moving between california in the bay area, I live in oakland and costa rica I'm Heredia. So that was kind of life. It was just interesting to be between two worlds. I think maybe some of your podcast listeners can relate to and understand that kind of traveling between I hate these terms, but the first world and the third world and kind of seeing the differences.
Speaker 1:Yes, I hate that, especially in a first world quote unquote country. It's like coded in third world yeah, exactly, exactly right.
Speaker 2:But yeah, so growing up in both it was, you know, speaking about the musical component of it it was really interesting to be exposed to all kinds of music on both sides. I mean, I I'm a child of the 80s, so grew up here and I remember like hearing run dmc for the first time and and hearing michael jackson when I was a kid, and then going back to costa rica and it'd be like you know, uh, ruben blades and it would be celia cruz. And also costa rica is basically in the caribbean. You know it's central american country but there is like a heavy caribbean influence there, especially being right next to pan Panama, where there was a lot of immigration that happened in regards to the construction of Panama Canal, and this big influence that you know infused the Atlantic side of the Central American countries in that area.
Speaker 2:So you know, in the same breath they're in the same kind of like listening space. You'd be hearing, you know, music from Bob Marley. You'd be hearing, like you know the same kind of like listening space. You'd be hearing, you know, music from Bob Marley. You'd be hearing, like you know the rate artists of the eighties. You'd be hearing, uh, what the early reggaeton sounds and I always fondly recall uh, they had like one of those video box type shows on you know TV where like an hour out of the day they would just show music videos.
Speaker 2:This is before youtube and those. You know all the, all the stuff we have now where you can instantaneously watch stuff. You had to like actually tune in and watch these videos. And um, I remember seeing um back to back when I was a kid, the video for muevelo by el general, right next to old dog by beanie man in this video countdown. So that's kind of like what life was like. And and then you know coming back to the States and you're getting all these other influences and my parents were also kind of like, you know, hippies, like rocker kids, so like my dad was actually very much into rock music and kind of like absorbed that influence from him. That was like early life and that I think has kind of set the foundation for where my musical interests would go through my young adulthood and into my adult years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I went to Costa Rica a few years ago.
Speaker 1:I went to Guanacaste and I was surprised when we went out like almost every night and I heard dancehall and reggae every night that we went out. It was my first time in a Latin American country besides Mexico and I just didn't expect it because I had never experienced it. But I was pleasantly surprised, had such an amazing time and I think that travel element really opens up the cultural experiences in exchange to kind of really understanding what people say when they say like well, we listen to that kind of music here and you're like, well, you don't really grasp it, but to be able to experience it was so beautiful and I had such an amazing time. So tell me about how you got into the music business here. Like what was your 20s? Like how did you start? And you're like I want to do music. What led to that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean I've always been interested in music as a listener, right first and foremost. I just always seem to really be tuned into music. Even now, one of the interesting moments I continually have in this like world of on-demand streaming and just instant access to everything, is being constantly transported back to moments in my in my younger days, vis-a-vis like a song. You know what I mean. Like I'm like, oh, I remember exactly where I was when I heard this song in the 80s, whatever. You know, I referenced um earlier, run dmc. I remember hearing tricky for the first time and I was like I had heard it and was like riding on my bike as a kid and I remember crashing my bike because I was kind of like so distracted, like thinking of this song.
Speaker 2:You know, that was like kind of the start for me is just that I was always interested in music. I just always had music in my head. And then, you know, when I was in grade school, middle school, I started kind of like taking on more of an interest. My parents tried putting us in piano lessons but they didn't really like take for me. But then I picked up a guitar one day and that was it, like I just ran with it, you know, started being really interested in performing music. I was like, in middle school I even did like choir for like half a year, you know.
Speaker 1:Let me find out. You got some singing chops.
Speaker 2:You know we'll go to karaoke sometime. I'll find out. You got some singing chops. Uh, you know what?
Speaker 2:we'll go to karaoke sometime I'll show you a thing or two. Yes, yeah, but even like the choir experience, which is is something I had kind of just recently, like just popped back in my head that's, that was another kind of one of these like musical moments that stood out to me as I got into performing, I started being more interested in, you know, kind of like exploring all these other things. I was in like punk rock band, started listening to him playing reggae, like I've been listening to reggae earlier than that, but I think in my teens is like really where you know, like I connected with it. Um, I remember hearing barrington levy, you know, and just being kind of mystified by his voice and even the production sound, and it was just like drums and bass, you know.
Speaker 2:I was like whoa, this is just so kind of different, even than bob marley, you know, because bob marley is just very like big. There's a big kind of like band sound to it and you hear this like the early dance hall from the 80s and some of the songs just literally stripped down to like a couple of instruments with, like you know, the engineer mixing in tracks and or mixing in the other elements of the songs, and so that was kind of to me was the awakening moment for kind of reconnecting again to my experience, like being in Costa Rica and being exposed to like these different styles of reggae, kind of peripherally. But then you know, when you're in your teens and it's kind of like a formative time for you, right, it's kind of like part of when you really develop your personality and I think that was kind of a moment for me that really happened during that development and stuck and so that's kind of where it's been for me since then for the most part.
Speaker 1:So you really are, at this time, focused on the performing arts and being in front of people. When did you decide to be more behind the scenes? To be more behind the scenes?
Speaker 2:Well, in my early 20s I did do some radios like college radio, local radio style stuff at a station called KFJC and I had a radio show there for four years.
Speaker 1:I'm a radio kid myself. I did radio in college too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're a special group. I think it was eye-opening to me in the sense that you know, you kind of get to see the magic behind the curtain or you know how it happens. Like you know, when you listen to the radio you don't really realize how much stuff is happening operationally. It's just kind of it just happens right.
Speaker 2:But when you're actually behind the board and you're the one you know queuing up ads or you know station ids, and then you're also keying up the music and you kind of are like this octopus and then you have to get on the mic and actually like back announce and you have to. You know like be composed and how you speak and deliver the kind of performance part of radio for the listener. I think that experience was pretty invaluable and I think, like you know, part of my musical journey and my journey in the industry has been trying out a lot of different things. So even, you know, producing my own shows, some audio engineering type stuff. I also started DJing. I was like DJing in my twenties and like I've been a DJ now for like 20 years, you know. So show promotion and kind of everything that comes along with those things and then also, of course, the art of DJing itself, you know.
Speaker 2:So all of that eventually led to when I got the opportunity to apply to be on the music team at Pandora and I didn't have much, let's say, like prior experience in the sense of you know I hadn't worked at a DSP or anything like that before that, but I did, you know, had to undergo the trial by fire which was the interview process there.
Speaker 2:It was like a very long and kind of drawn out interview process and they basically, you know, had confidence that I would at least be able to handle at the time what was like the librarian stuff, you know. And so that's where I started there and eventually, you know, just did what I was supposed to be doing for that part of the job, which was it was like library maintenance. You know what I mean to be doing for that part of the job, which was it was like library maintenance. You know what I mean. It was acquiring music. It was, you know, tending to metadata, doing all the similar to the radio, like doing all the kind of like unsexy things behind the scenes that make for a good listener experience on the front end, you know.
Speaker 1:Give us the details of the unsexy. I feel like you know from the outside, looking in the industry looks extremely sexy, but there are so many different opportunities behind the scenes as well. So when you say library, I'm assuming that's like catalog management, like the singles and the album. So like, what did you have to do exactly?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that it was. It was exactly that I mean there were. At the very beginning. It was literally that I would get a sheet of failed catalog searches, like the searches that that listeners made that resulted in like no result, and it would be everything. It would be like Japanese math rock and it would be, you know, easy listening, and it might be like a jazz album, but just a big sheet of stuff. And this is at the would be you know, easy listening and it might be like a jazz album, but just a big sheet of stuff. And this is at the time when, you know, pandora was still hadn't really developed a content like pipeline system. There was one, but it was. It was not as refined as what it would eventually be, and so we were actually, in these early days, like actually purchasing music and uploading it to a library and then, um, to do that, you know, like before, you would complete the upload, you do the unsexy, like metadata part and we had metadata standards.
Speaker 2:You know that the company had that basically mirrored what was supposed to be happening on the front end. You didn't want like weird characters or anything like that appearing for listeners. You know when they look and see oh what's the song, you know it might have like some weird ampersand or something thrown in there. So we'd have to go in and do all that metadata maintenance by hand. You know we're talking about dozens of titles, you know, just from that one sheet that I would get you know, to work off of. And then there was, you know, the other thing which was like kind of like the research right, we used to call it radars where you would, you know, I'd be like, hey, what kind of music should we be pulling in? Like who's trending, who's hot, who's an interesting artist? And you go and grab. Maybe if they had catalog music that was out that we hadn't yet put into our system, you might grab that and bring it all in, you know.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of actually led to, kind of opened the door for me in terms of eventually taking on the role of, like, head of Caribbean content at Pandora, which was my love, my musical love, you know, was that I.
Speaker 2:I love, you know, everything Caribbean related. You know, like all the, all the music, and so I saw there was gaps in in the catalogs for a lot of artists. And so what, what I was doing was on my, you know, it's like on my spare, the spare time that I had, I would be like completing those artists catalogs. You know I'll be like, oh okay, what do we have from Beanie man? You know, like, what do we not have from Beanie man? Like, I want to make sure this catalog is complete. And yeah, so that led to the kind of like the earliest opportunities when the heads of the department came to me and said, hey, you seem to know this music really well and you seem to be connected, you know, to the history of it, the culture of it. So like, why don't we get you started working on some of these stations?
Speaker 1:So we have you to thank for this extensive catalog that we have on Pandora.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, well for sure, early on, eventually, the they developed a content delivery system that was much more refined and it was that was essentially. You know, what was happening with every dsp was, yeah, you know, the idea of like, oh, I don't know if you remember this, but there was like kind of like the. There was a period of time when all the dsps were bragging about how much music they had. You know, I was. I was like, oh, we boast over you know, 30 million titles or whatever.
Speaker 2:But the reality of it was that everybody had pretty much everything, assuming, you know, they had made the deals with all the different distributors and labels.
Speaker 1:All right, so tell me how that transitioned into your role currently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so as time went on and I was doing more and more programming and I was kind of working on the artist marketing side more, uh explicitly, and I'm developing more direct relationships with people. I was at pandora for almost 10 years, you know. So there was a chunk of time where I was kind of like just doing the library stuff and kind of behind the scenes and it eventually evolved into being more in front and trying to like do what I was really kind of like run down what I saw as great opportunities to connect with artists and provide visibility and to expand the listenership on pandora. And I had this philosophy of kind of like I want listeners to have the experience that if they come and listen to here and they search for anything, no matter what it is in these genres, that they're going to be able to find it, and not just that, but they'll be able to find some sort of editorial option. So I really wanted to have there be an experience for anyone who was going to listen on Pandora that if they went and wanted to listen to jab soka, there'd be a whole jab soka station for them to listen to. There'd be like a playlist or multiple playlists or if they wanted to listen to like women in reggae and just really like dive into that. But there's also a station and playlist and it's representative, you know, and then, depending on the size of the you let's say like the demand for any particular thing, there might be multiple options.
Speaker 2:And then that evolved into the more kind of marquee, kind of listening branded opportunities. You know, launching stations like Pull Up, which is all supposed to be brand new dance hall, all supposed to be brand new dance hall, and you know the idea was just get like the hottest new stuff on it and also have artists represented. You know, like with the station takeovers, and you know we did stuff with like spice and I think we did one with cranium, um, we did one with shaggy, you know, ultimately just really trying to kind of like fill this out so that there was there was a really like excellent listening experience for anyone that came to platform After doing that for a number of years. You know, basically Pandora, like many other DSPs, decided to slim down the workforce, so I got caught up in, you know, like wave three or four, whatever it was of the layoffs, you know, which you know.
Speaker 2:In hindsight, you know, it may have been time. I was already there for nearly a decade and while I was comfortable, it was kind of like a great opportunity for me to say, well, what else is there out there for me to do? You know, I've already done all these other things. I've done performance, I've done DJing, I've done show promotion, I've done some radio. I've, you know, had this amazing time at Pandora, working at a dsp. Like what else in the industry is out there, I think the you know, the reality of the marketplace is that all the dsps are slimming down pretty much, uh, in every way and trying to run um, I don't know, I guess the corporate term would be like run more efficiently or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yes, um more work and less, less, less dollars yeah that's probably gets a little bit more of that later, but, um, but yeah, so you know, over the over the years I just built up like some really great relationships and and had a, you know, a really uh, flattering response to when I announced that I was not going to be at pandora anymore and there there were some opportunities that became immediately available to me and there was some other stuff that I kind of looked into and explored and weighed my options and Ineffable just seemed like a really great fit.
Speaker 2:It really seemed like a place where I could come in and really pursue the things that I think were going to be the most interesting to me, which were helping a company develop more on the business side, but then also working directly with artists and, um, helping develop projects. You know, in particular, that was something that um adam, the president of ineffable, and I had talked about, um, very explicitly was. Like you know, I want to be closer to the kind of the nucleus of the company and like the decision making and kind of like trying to figure out the direction of where this company, you know, is going to go in the next few years. But also I still want to be working hands on with people and and there, there's that creative side to me. I really, um, I have such an admiration and appreciation for the artists and everything that they put into the music and, um, I wanted to like continue that, that path to of having a creative contribution.
Speaker 1:It sounds like you probably have at least gone from this very structured and you kind of know what you're going to do to this now creative space of not doing whatever you want to do. Like you get to decide how, how little or how much you are investing in a particular project from beginning to end. Are my assumptions correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, working in a corporate environment is interesting. I don't know that I ever a hundred percent, really ever fit into it, because I still in my time there always had this kind of like working I don't know on a street level mentality. You know what I mean. At the time that I was doing my job at Pandora, I was still doing my own events and, and you know, uh was still doing my own events and you know, show promoting and I'd be, you know, at night, like going and putting up flyers to get people to the event. So I still had this kind of hungry mentality that didn't always, I think, connect with the kind of the seemingly cool, calm, collected, organized facade that I think a lot of the you know the corporate environment emphasizes Coming to Ineffable.
Speaker 2:I think for me has been an amazing experience because it's not corporate, it's an independent company. You're actually able to speak directly to like and be part of the top decision making team. You know as related to the direction of a project or direction of the company and ultimately, you know, being that close I think makes all the difference to me. I think, when you work at a corporation, for as valuable as you may be made to to feel at any given point. Um, at the end of the day, you're still a number on a spreadsheet and I think that it is evident in what's happening across the industry, every dsp, and even outside of the music industry. You see the same thing happening at a lot of other companies, uh, large companies that have employed. You know tens of thousands of people that you know jobs are basically valued only to a certain extent as it affects the bottom line. You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So not to get you know too serious here, but I think being at Ineffable is very different. It feels a lot more like the words and the contribution are valued in a way different way. So it's not to, like you know, talk down on my experience at Pandora. I loved being there, but it was time to do something else, whether I decided it myself or not. But it has ended up being an amazing transformation for me. I feel very lucky.
Speaker 1:So you touched on a good topic. It's really like the music industry and it's just condensing year after year in terms of just people and teams. Um like, what are your thoughts on the industry? I mean, there are definitely less labels, more artists, more music, and so it is somewhat switched on its head due to the easy accessibility to one technology and to the access to distribution. Yeah, so what are your thoughts on the current state of not just Caribbean music industry but just the music industry as a whole?
Speaker 2:I mean, that's a big question.
Speaker 1:That's a loaded question, I know.
Speaker 2:I think there's a number of different ways to look at that. You know, to kind of answer that question, if you're going to go cup half full, let's say yeah. For any artists right now it's way easier, from wherever you are, to get your music to a person anywhere in the world, whereas in the past it was like those opportunities you had to have either independent funding or work with a label or be fortunate enough to work with a distributor to get your music to people. Now it's as easy as uploading something and then somebody in France or somebody in India can pull up your music and listen to it. I think on the other side of it right if you look at it there are still some incredible challenges and I think that the challenges really have more to do with capturing people's attention and the volume of music that comes out. Volume of music that comes out now because, since there are less you know barriers to get over to actually distribute your music internationally. Along with that, the ability to record easily at home you know you don't need to have a ten thousand dollar. You know an hour studio or whatever it is you know to actually like put together a good and and thoughtful album. But the volume of the music makes it much more difficult.
Speaker 2:I mean, just reading the illuminate report from this year and they were saying there was an average of like 90 000 songs, or 99 000 songs, that were uploaded to dsps every day last year. Now the reality of it is that the vast majority of that stuff is not really heard. I think, like I was looking at the number that they also provided about, you know, they have this kind of like this listening pyramid and really, you know, the top 10 to 20,000 songs, I think are the ones that actually are like doing the bulk of streaming, and a lot of those are catalog as well as like the top currents, you know, and then the the bottom, whatever. It is like 90 million tracks or something like that. I can't. I I'm totally misquoting the number. I wish I had, I wish I had it in front of me, but those have gotten less than like a hundred spins, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that it is a big challenge for anyone trying to release music right now to cut through all the noise, not just like the music, but also you know what's happening on Netflix and sports and TikTok and social media and politics and capture people's attention. You know, I think, is the biggest, the biggest challenge right now. Once the ability to distribute internationally with pretty much nearly instantaneous ease is happening, then it becomes like okay, well, how do you separate yourself from those 99,000 tracks that you're getting uploaded each day?
Speaker 1:Do you think that the investment that traditionally artists would spend on creating the project is now moving into their hands to market any of the project singles that they're working on? So, for example, now it doesn't cost ten thousand dollars to make a studio album, but you probably have to become a content creator and spend five thousand dollars on content creation tools to an execution or a team or something like. The money that they're spending is just shifting and the onus is now more on the artist than the label.
Speaker 1:So what is the role of labels and artists in today's industry?
Speaker 2:I mean I think that depends on the label and the artist. First off. I mean it's hard for me to speak to any other label experience. I haven't worked at any other labels.
Speaker 2:I think, from looking at things from the ineffable side of I think what we are interested is working with artists who have a vision, who understand that it takes kind of like a consistent amount of pressure to reach and grow your audience and that are interested in the long game not necessarily short, you know, kind of like investment and rewards. You know we view a lot of these things as kind of like who's the right person to work with? You know, who do we think is going to invest time, effort and kind of mirror what we're trying to bring to the table? Who can fill in the gaps? You know who do we think is going to invest time, effort and kind of mirror what we're trying to bring to the table? Who can fill in the gaps? You know that that we have, or where can we work with an artist to fill in the gaps that they have, you know, in their repertoire, to like make sure that when we're coupled together that we're working at like in the optimal way. You know, yeah, I think, uh, you know broadly that artists probably are dealing with labels, uh, primarily for budget, uh, primarily for connections. But having a budget doesn't necessarily make a project successful. It actually really starts from what the artist contributes, right, which is their creative energy. It has to do with the effort that they're going to put into to continue to connect with their audience. Uh, it has to do with, um, you know, being open to collaboration, being open to hearing our ideas, in the same way that we need to be open to, you know, following the artist's lead. It's a bit, it's a bit of a dance. You know what I mean. Um, instead of there being like one person leading, it's kind of like all right, you know, like, whose turn is it to steer our dance steps here? You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I think your question about, like you know, the, the budgets and shifting and like, is the onus on artists to um, take those budgets, kind of put them in different places. You know for sure there's a change, in a similar way to how music distribution has become much easier. You know, the ability to promote yourself has become easier. I mean, we're all walking around with these, basically like supercomputers that act as like billboards or like personal little billboards, right? So much so that we've all forgotten, like, when you pop this thing open, nearly half the time the first thing you see is an ad.
Speaker 2:If you open Instagram these days, probably half the time when you open it up, the first thing you see might not be your best friend's post. It might be like something from Costco or something like that, saying, hey, we have those couches that you're interested in. So you know, we're now able to like do highly targeted ads that can reach consumers in ways that previously you know, in the music industry, we're not able to do. And similarly with, like you know, developing content. We're like on the verge of TikTok shutting down right or potentially being shut down in the United States.
Speaker 2:Tiktok has grown to be like this monster for the music industry in terms of raising awareness of releases, and some of that is viral, some of that is engineered, but there's no doubt that, like you know, artists investing in things like social media, having a part of your team if you have a team, be that person that helps you develop content for TikTok that stuff has become really important to the artist's repertoire to like get their music out to fans and to have people discover their music more. I think a recent example, a success story on the ineffable side for us, was with Coco T and Kes, where, you know, kes really wasn't too active on TikTok but we quickly realized once that song was released, as people started to kind of use the Coco T sound more and more, that there was an opportunity to like, lean in on his side and make that go viral.
Speaker 1:I love that example, especially because I saw it pop around the holiday time. And traditionally we have cocoa tea for Christmas special occasions, and it's not to be confused with hot chocolate. It's not the same.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I saw that, along with the concert that he had in Brooklyn and everyone dancing outside in the cold it was like one of the coldest days here in New York and everyone had just emptied out the. I think it was the Paramount.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the video of everyone dancing after they had already been dancing at his concert was just as equally, you know, a great follow up to just all the exposure that I saw around the single itself, so I thought that was exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know Kes really leaned into that moment and you know the exuberance that people have had almost instantly for that song is incredible. It's interesting how it just like immediately started to dominate the consciousness. I mean, I think it speaks to a number of things like the power of Kes's songwriting, along with the other songwriters you know who assist on that the production, but then also kind of like the infectious and like wonderful nature of Soka music and the just like the joy that comes from that music. Right, it is all about joy. And when you see that crowd of people standing outside of the Paramount singing that song after the show, just kind of continuing to bring that energy, you know I mean that's it, that's what it's all about, that's the magic that I think like artists are really trying to create.
Speaker 2:Going back to the TikTok thing, I think you know it really helped him to lean into that social media platform. To date, I think the latest number is the videos that he generated have been viewed 168 million times and there have been 193,000 plus video creations using the Cocoa Tea sound. Yeah, I think that outweighs and dwarfs, you know, like what is happening on other platforms. So that kind of is one illustration, potentially, of you know, like the importance of leaning in where you see something working already, right, like we're talking about, like are we shifting budget away from you know things we might have done traditionally, which you know like, maybe like street team, or you know, like publication ads or something like that, and instead putting them into these social media outlets? Absolutely like, that stuff needs to happen for artists to be successful, for their projects, projects to be successful. But it has to be done in the right way, you know, because it's not just like, oh, we just dump money willy nilly into social media content and that's going to make it work.
Speaker 2:It absolutely not, because then it becomes that Costco ad that I was talking about earlier, which is not personalized. It doesn't feel genuine. Everything that kes and the team decided to put together was conceptualized. On their side, it was something that he felt good about. Um, he's obviously like an incredibly like charming and and like fun person to watch and to see interacting. So if it's not genuine and it doesn't come from the heart or the soul, people are not stupid, you know. I mean, they're gonna sniff that stuff out right away and they're going to say like, oh, this is. This is the ad for Coco T, instead of it being like oh look at Kes having fun. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Look at him having fun talking about this new song. Is blowing up.
Speaker 1:So you, you talked about TikTok we have to discuss, like at the time that we're recording this, it might be banned in a couple days, but it might not be. Um, have you guys been talking about what that transition plan is gonna look like? Because it's, I mean, for right now it's just the states. Um, it's still probably going to be available outside of the us. Specifically, how does that change? Um, from a music discoverability perspective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean there's no doubt that TikTok has become really important for the music industry as a whole, but my answer to that would be it was never the only thing that people should be paying attention to. I think one of the conversations that we try to have with artists is that you need to be active everywhere you know, because if you only focus on one place and putting all of your, your effort into, like one part of your audience, the other audience is going to suffer and start to diminish and not see your content as much. And it is important. It's kind of like you know, if I sell content as much and it is important. It's kind of like you know if I sell I don't know a jacket or a shirt or something like that like I don't want that to just be exclusively a one store. You know I want that to be available everywhere and I want to be telling people that they can get it anywhere. And at the same thing goes for music. You know I hate to talk about music in those terms of kind of like the store, but you know you have to make sure that it's available in every store and you have to make sure that you're telling people that they can find it everywhere. And you have to make sure that you're addressing people in the places where they are.
Speaker 2:Not everybody uses every service. Not everybody uses Spotify. Not everybody uses Instagram. You know what I mean. You know some people use snap a lot and some people use um only tiktok, and so you know, yes, there there's going to be an impact, um, the explosive virality of tiktok and the, the way that it serves music up to people. Um has been um an interesting, you know, recent dynamic and recent development of the music industry. Uh, however, you know, if it goes away, that just means that you have to like find your audiences wherever they are after that and and put you know, put your time and effort into connecting with them.
Speaker 2:And I also think, you know, I feel like, because people are, you know, themselves have a bias towards using like a certain platform that they're not often, you know, considering what's happening over here, you know, from the label side of things that are inevitable, we try as much as possible to educate ourselves and become, like very familiar with as many of the platforms as we can, and really be like monitoring those things as we go along with our releases to see what is working and and that's where we, you know, when we see a spike and we see something, you know that is a viral moment happening. It might not be to the tune of, let's say, like a Cocoa Tea, where you're talking about the millions of listeners. But if we see, for instance, like on Shazam in a country, in Ghana, or something like that, that your song is getting you know X amount of Shazams over indexing, above and beyond like any other country, then we might go oh, okay, maybe it's time for you to collaborate with an artist in that country on your next, you know, release. Or maybe, you know, this is where we put some additional ad spend on boosting that video to those listeners in that country, because it might actually, you know, this is where we put some additional ad spend on boosting that video to those listeners in that country because it might actually, you know, lead to you having a spike in your audience there, you know.
Speaker 2:So it's difficult, I think, for artists, or really any creative, to be that involved in the minutia of every one of these platforms, and that's where we are, like you know, trying to help a lot of the times is to kind of point these things out and say there's an opportunity here. Or, at the same time, if they see something and they say, hey, there's, we see this happening over here. That's like great. Let's double down on that and see what we can do in that area. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I like that. It's almost like you're kind of monitoring one where consumers are kind of interacting and two where artists are kind of meeting their community in that interaction. So I think that that is a pretty good strategy. Gears and talk a little bit about streaming and and I guess playlist curation is probably something you're really familiar with how have those two things kind of changed over the last, I would say, three to five years?
Speaker 2:okay, um, yeah, I think the dsps, uh for one, are moving away from the human curator and we've seen that almost across the board.
Speaker 2:This, in particular, I think has been really impactful in the past couple of years in regards to reggae, dance, halsoca, caribbean music in general. When you don't have the people in the building who have an affinity for and understanding of the history, the culture, the trends of the music where it's at now, where it's been, even you know, thinking down the line, like who are the artists of the future that are worth you know, kind of like trying to highlight and put some emphasis on, it becomes much more difficult for your genre or your music to reach people on these platforms. I think that you start to see your genre or your music to reach people on these platforms. I think that you start to see I don't like using the term gatekeeping in this context, but there is a certain kind of gate that gets closed and it becomes very hard to get through the gate when you don't have someone who's inside advocating in it in some way. I think a lot of that stuff is driven, unfortunately, by the market. It's driven by, um, the size of the audience and um, I think, uh, you know, in regards to like this is this is something that you kind of touched on a little bit earlier that I don't think we addressed directly.
Speaker 2:But when you're talking about, like, what is the state of the music industry for the caribbean, um, I think that there's probably like two things to consider or a few. There's a number of things to consider, but one of the things I would kind of like impart on people is like one be um thoughtful of, like the size of the audience, right, there's been a lot of discussion about the growth of Afro beats and the growth of, you know, latin music, and part of the reason that there's been growth in all those areas is because the audience sizes are considerably larger. There's more people in just in Africa, right, like, consuming Afro beats than there may be, you know, in the combined areas of, like you know of Jamaica and Trinidad and the small islands in the Caribbean and beyond that. So that's one thing to think about. That's not to say that there isn't a larger addressable audience internationally and that there aren't countries that over-index in reggae listening. I'm using reggae as kind of like the top level genre because there's kind of I think, more historically like more listeners in that genre. But you know, over-indexes in France, over-indexes in the UK, germany. There's a large population of people, either, you know, first generation or second or beyond, descendants of Caribbeans in the United States, canada, toronto, like these are all places where, and then, of course, like you know as well, in Africa. You know these are all places where the music is being listened to and heard and loved and and really, like you know, are places where the artists need to lean into, you know, and find their audiences in all these places.
Speaker 2:I think that's kind of leads to my second point, which, for you know, the creators in the Caribbean. I think there needs to be the mindset of trying to like think of how to export the music you know, think of it as like beyond, kind of like like just pointing inward and saying, like I really want to reach my audience and like, yes, absolutely like, you have to be addressing your core, but you also have to be like thinking about, like where are all the places where I have audiences? That, um, I need to kind of like put some extra attention to one of the um, the sections in the illuminate report that I referred to earlier was about which countries have, kind of like, the highest index in music exported to other countries and like where it's being consumed the most right um, the united states, of course, like still reigns as like the top exporter of music, meaning, like you know, music written and created by people from here that goes to other and is consumed in other countries. But um, we're starting to see a shift and like that you know, for instance, um korea, uh is starting to see a big explosion in terms of uh exportation of music.
Speaker 2:India. These are countries, like you know, considerable um sizes of people, but um, I think it's also the mindset of some of those artists in terms of like we need to like get our music to other places and like really have our music embraced by other people internationally and putting as much importance into that as um you know, like finding um that success with your local core audience. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not if I'm like off track now.
Speaker 1:I think in a lot of ways I've been um talking about the idea of crossover, not just being to the U? S but looking to Latin America and even Africa, because our music is streamed in so many different places. I think what it means to crossover is verygae and dance hall and soca, like where it's not just one market. You know that you're kind of looking to get into, and so I think that that is hard to kind of conceptualize if you don't have a connection there. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So I think it's important for going back to even my experience going to costa rica and understanding what the market really looks and feels like outside of my one single being a hit there. Not that I have a single.
Speaker 2:I don't have a single um what I'm just finding out, you're recording artists right now no I think that's a really important point and I think latin america, to me, is a huge opportunity for artists in the caribbean. Um costa rica, for instance just using my home as an example is always one of the top streaming destinations for artists from the caribbean. When we're looking at the data, um, san jose, costa rica, which is the capital, is like usually within like the top 15 cities for artist releases, and I think that um there is a great affinity for caribbean music. Like in latin america, central america, and like down into you know, colombia, brazil, argentina, chile, know Colombia, brazil, argentina, chile, there are artists who are kind of like homegrown artists in those areas, who do really well and it wouldn't be a far jump, for I think artists from, let's say, like Jamaica just use one country as an example to like make an effort to try and get to those audiences down there. I think that's part and parcel, to kind of like the one of the other overarching philosophies of ineffable, which is the idea of all these kind of places where the music is being played. It's all part of a larger tapestry and the more that we can find these opportunities to put these artists that are seemingly from different places, well, they are from different places but are seemingly, like you know, doing different things, but together on one song or start to like find opportunities for them to collaborate in some way. That actually helps all of those artists across the board increase right. It helps them increase their audience sizes.
Speaker 2:I think Adam, who's again who's the president of Ineffable, has really done this pretty incredibly, again, using Kes as an example Licky Ticky right, which came out, and there's a song with Jay Puri, produced by Michael Bruin, and it's a Soca song but it's got a little bit of a Haitian flavor to it and eventually, like a version was flipped into, like it was flipped into a reggae version that was produced by J-Vibe and featured Jay Boog and Maoli from Hawaii, and that song has been going really strong in the Hawaii market since that remix came out, a place where Kes, really, prior to that, was pretty much unknown. That same success story was recently produced with Hector Roots-Lewis, who had a song that was coming out on fire and we were trying to figure out, oh, who would be great to put on this verse, because he had an open verse on the song and a lot of ideas were thrown around and we kind of landed on jaybug, and that song is in now one of the top shazam songs in hawaii and is really exposing hector to, like that audience that previously may not have even heard of him, you know. So it opens up the door for him, artists like him, for artists like kes, where it's like, okay, we have a song that has been successful here, like, maybe the next time we're planning out a tour or something like that, we can go to Hawaii. You know, we can actually like do shows there. We can do a couple shows there, because we know that we have the data, that we have however many like monthly listeners in that area, and it all started because of this track. And then, you know, I like what.
Speaker 2:I think the opposite is true as well. Like, you know, I like what. I think the opposite is true as well. Like you know, for artists, uh, like stick figure, whether you know, stick figure has been really successful in the united states.
Speaker 2:He's really carved out his own place here and built up this pretty incredible sized audience to the point where he's like a billion spinner on pandora just touring kind of non-stop and selling out venues all over the place in the states. But he's, you know, wants to collaborate more with people who are like in other scenes. And um asked reached out and asked, like barrington levy, to collaborate with him, an artist that was very influential for him, you know, when he was starting off making music and they have a song together, you know, and then barrington's performing with him at red rocks, you know, for the sold out crowd of like thousands of people. So I think that is that is a really big component of what we're trying to do is is unify all these people around the globe, the biggest artists in all these different areas, and put them together on one song or, like you know, find some sort of collaborative space for them and really continue to like, unify and galvanize the audience internationally.
Speaker 1:I think you're one for the examples, because I think we don't hear enough of the examples of collaboration, of what can be done and what has been done. We often don't see the stats because it's not necessarily in a billboard article, it's not flashy, but it's specific examples of where it worked, how it worked and what was done, and I think we need to see more of that to also inspire the next generation of people coming up. What would you say you're excited about in the near future? Like, what are you working on that is exciting for you?
Speaker 2:um, real, I just want to like kind of maybe put like a little ps on the portion I just spoke about there. I think the collaboration, as we know, has been happening for a long time in different ways yes, I agree all the way back to, like you know, the 70s. It's like peter tosh is doing songs with um mick jagger you know to the 90s, where you know you have shabba ranks doing these or super cat doing these crossover tracks with.
Speaker 2:I know heavy d is, like you know, from jamaica but you know he was known in the states as a hip-hop artist, you know, and like those kind of collaborations to the 2000s you have, when stefani and lady saw doing these tracks together, um, you know all the way to other instances, like just recently, junior gong collaborating with um kevin flores or something like that, who's a you know colombian artist trying to reach into the colombian market. I mean junior gong, actually a great example of someone who's been doing this. He and Steven have been doing this their entire career. Bobby Brown collaborations, black Thought collaborations you know all that kind of stuff that they've been doing to really try to like work with people who they're interested in working with. And, you know, also being children of a certain age where you know the influence is coming a little bit from the hip-hop and R&B and infusing itself with reggae. I think collaborations in music in the past 10 years now have been a thing Everyone knows. To a certain extent it's kind of a cheat code or whatever, but I also think it's really important when it's done from the heart. It can only be done similar to what I was talking about with social media earlier about getting artists to post in a genuine way. I think if the music doesn't come from a genuine place when you're doing these collaborations, people are going to sniff it out and it's just not going to work. So it has to really come from that place of true collaboration. I'll give you one more example just to kind of put an exclamation point on this and then move on to your last question.
Speaker 2:But one of the songs that I helped work on in the past year was this collaboration between Surfer Girl, which is a band from Southern California, and they're kind of like if you took like King Tubby and mashed up with the Beach Boys, you know it's kind of like really like surfy driven pop music, but it's also very dubby and kind of like vibey sounding and putting Surfer Girl together with Kalia on the track that they did Don't Go. And I just knew when I heard it that in my heart I was like, you know, I really think that Khalia would be really great on this track and I really think that she would catch the vibe of what the songwriter Carter is trying to convey in this song. It's a little bit of a heartbreak song. Yeah, and it was one of those things where, sent over the file for Khalia to check out, she's sending me voice demos coming home after the club when she's in London, like just after really having connected with the song, sending it back to Surfer Girl, having them check it out and like really start to develop the track, and then, by the time it finishes, it was like, yes, that was exactly what I was hoping would happen. They both kind of understood the assignment but also just felt the track in the right way, and I think that that collaboration is just really fantastic and is illustrative of what we do and what we're trying to do more of is kind of like bridge these worlds and kind of create some magic along the way. So, as far as like what I'm excited about in the future, I think Protégé and Lila Ike.
Speaker 2:So, as far as like what I'm excited about um in the future, I think protege and lila ik have recently um started working with ineffable and being able to hear those projects ahead of time.
Speaker 2:It's kind of one of those things where you're just like, ah, I want everyone to hear this, you know, because it is. Those two are like really special and pretty amazing sounding, obviously both pretty thoughtful, just driven and passionate artists who are creating music from the heart and are doing it in really kind of just deliberate ways. It's not like let's just get an album out. I think their philosophy is like this can't come out until it's right, and I'm just really excited about those two. I've heard some early stuff from the Movement, which is another one of the bands that is on the ineffable client roster, and just some really incredible stuff there. They're from here in the United States and what they're doing in terms of kind of combining the reggae sound with like some slight electronic music, and they've been doing this like throughout their their career, you know, but I just really see them as being very boundary breaking and I really love the stuff that I'm hearing there and I don't know, I feel like I just keep going like rattling off everyone that's working with us.
Speaker 2:I think we're very fortunate to be working with a group of people who are incredibly talented. Emily Brimlow is someone else who I actually think is worth mentioning, because Ineffable is very much, you know, perceived as a reggae like label and true, like that. I think, like a lot of the artists on our on our roster, are reggae for the most part. Emily is um, a singer, songwriter from la, who primarily does, you know, kind of like pop music and but is just an incredible songwriter. And, uh, she caught adam's attention via a post on instagram where she was singing an unreleased song called I Fall in Love Too Easily and it just immediately captured his attention. And then also, that video clip happened to go viral despite the song not having even been released yet. So, you know, reached out and now she like working with inevitable and the stuff that she's writing is just really fantastic. I think if you appreciate good songwriting, no matter what the genre, then you should you should check her music out awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, we're already like an hour into our conversation and I feel like we could go another hour, but I'm not gonna take up all your time. So you have such an extensive catalog of music love that I have to ask these questions. All right, so what are you playing? When is the question? What are you playing when? When you're getting ready to go out, what are you listening to?
Speaker 2:what am I playing when I'm getting ready to go out?
Speaker 1:yes, and it doesn't have to be dance hall.
Speaker 2:But okay, all right, all right, yeah all right, yeah, I mean, uh, I listen to dance hall, probably primarily. That's like what I listen to the most of and all, all kinds of you know, like every era of it, um, you know, from brand new stuff to you know old school, original stuff. I mean, again, I'm the child of the 80s and 90s so like, to a certain extent, like I always have to go back and listen to my general degrees and you know sham and that whole era, you know.
Speaker 1:But yeah, love, love, dancehall for sure okay, all right, so there's a dinner party at your house. What's on your playlist?
Speaker 2:that kind of depends what who's coming over, don't you think?
Speaker 2:very true, very true, friends, friends, friends, uh yeah, I mean, if it's some people that I want to like chat with and like kick back with, I usually put on some instrumental music. So like, for instance, I might put on a combination of dub and I'm not just saying that because I'm like, oh, mr Reggae, whatever, but I do love listening to dub reggae a lot so I might put on a combination of dub and maybe some low-key salsa and cumbia and stuff in the background.
Speaker 1:OK.
Speaker 2:I also really love this band who's gotten to be pretty big now. Um, they're called crogbin and they're just like this instrumental trio and they do like it's like a combination between surf, rock and funk and kind of like international sound, like guitar sounds and like hip-hop, laid-back, low-file style drumming and dubby bass and just really, really fantastic stuff. I'm really interested in them because I love their guitarist. I think he's like fantastic and as a guitar player I listen to that and I'm kind of like, oh god, is he doing all this stuff?
Speaker 1:you know all right, I'm gonna switch up. Switch up my last question okay you're introducing to an eight-year-old a genre of your choice pick any genre and you want to put this eight-year-old on to some good music. What would you play for them?
Speaker 2:okay. Well, I have a seven-year-old, so this, this okay. Yeah, this is something I do all the time, but she's a music head, so it's like she has her lane well, you're her dad, so I'm I'm assuming she's supposed to be a music head yeah, but she's got her own lane of music that she likes and that she is like you know, so it's hard for me to actually kind of penetrate that yes no, just play it.
Speaker 1:I. I'm the same way, my older daughter and even my younger one. Even though you don't think that they get it, they're listening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, what am I? How do I introduce it? I, you know, to be honest with you, like I would probably try to play something like Sokka, because it's to me that's kind of like it's. It's an easy barrier of entry there.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean like, uh, it's melodic, it's fun, usually, like you know, high bpm or kind of up tempo, and all the choruses are like sing-along choruses. I actually have a video of my daughter, who's now seven, but like she was, you know, maybe a year or a year and a half old, she was still in like her high chair eating and me playing family, you know, in the background and she's like jumping around in her, you know. But I I try to play more. You know I try to play soca stuff for her. I try to play like reggae and she hasn't really like fully gotten last genre yet. Right now she's like in her taylor swift phase, which I'm like she's in her swifty era but you know, actually I'll say this she uh also really loves um what's her name?
Speaker 2:uh, charlie xx or xcx so, which I love too. So that's kind of like where we're meeting in the middle is like we're having like brat summer, but also now winter, and I'm the brat, dad, and she's my daughter.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much, diego. I had such a great time talking with you. You're always welcome back on the show anytime, and thank you so much again. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me and this is great and I can't wait to come back. We'll wrap some more about just straight up music and do less industry talk next time.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, that'll be fun. I'm going to put that in your schedule now.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm ready. Let me know.
Speaker 1:All right, Until next time Later.
