In this episode, we tackle the question of why dancehall hasn't seen the same level of growth as hip hop. We explore the trials and triumphs of these two vibrant genres. Our special guests, Chris and Kerry, share their expert insights on the often overlooked ways that reggae and dancehall have shaped hip hop.
Venture even further into the music space as we dissect the unique song clash culture in dancehall and hip hop. With a critical look at the harsh realities faced by artists and the importance of staying connected to the culture, every beat and note matters in creating a successful song. A must-listen for any music lover or aspiring artist.
Bring home Bob Marley: One Love on Digital now! Celebrate the life and music of an icon who inspired generations through his message of love, peace, and unity. Buy Bob Marley: One Love on Digital today and get over 50 minutes of behind-the-scenes footage and deleted scenes! Available at participating retailers. Rated PG-13. From Paramount Pictures.
Style & Vibes: Website | Newsletter | Youtube | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook
Produced by Breadfruit Media
In this episode, we tackle the question of why dancehall hasn't seen the same level of growth as hip hop. We explore the trials and triumphs of these two vibrant genres. Our special guests, Chris and Kerry, share their expert insights on the often overlooked ways that reggae and dancehall have shaped hip hop.
Venture even further into the music space as we dissect the unique song clash culture in dancehall and hip hop. With a critical look at the harsh realities faced by artists and the importance of staying connected to the culture, every beat and note matters in creating a successful song. A must-listen for any music lover or aspiring artist.
Bring home Bob Marley: One Love on Digital now! Celebrate the life and music of an icon who inspired generations through his message of love, peace, and unity. Buy Bob Marley: One Love on Digital today and get over 50 minutes of behind-the-scenes footage and deleted scenes! Available at participating retailers. Rated PG-13. From Paramount Pictures.
Style & Vibes: Website | Newsletter | Youtube | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook
Produced by Breadfruit Media
Welcome to the Style and Vibes podcast with me, makayla. I'll be giving you the inside scoop on music, fashion, culture and more from Caribbean celebrities and taste makers across the globe Pushing our culture with authenticity and, of course, style and Vibes. Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Style and Vibes podcast with yours truly, makayla. If you're new here, welcome to the family. If you are returning, welcome back family. In today's episode it's kind of a continuation of our conversation about reggae and dancehall's impact and influence on hip hop. In our initial discussion we kind of veered off topic which I didn't include in that episode to discuss if dancehall kind of got left behind from a growth and advancement perspective as a genre for the business. We discussed a number of opportunities, including development of the business side of the music, government support, how artists have developed over the years and so much more. So in this episode it's a conversation or a debate between Chris Kerry and myself about all of these things. So I hope you enjoy it. Let's get right into it.
Speaker 2:You know, one of the biggest things about this conversation that bothers me is that I feel that dancehall could have achieved that same level of growth and I feel like Jamaica didn't do what it needed to as a nation to support that. You know, some people argue and say different, but I just feel, like you know, when I look at both of those genres, I feel like dancehall could have what hip hop now has. You know, it could have that level of it because it is great, but it could see that greatness financially for the artists, for young people coming into the business to be able to grow and flourish in a way that hip hop has. And that's kind of the challenge that I face now with where hip hop is versus dancehall. I'm gonna say Kerry, ready for me, she ready, she ready, she ready If you want to get a?
Speaker 1:see Kerry Fias, you know.
Speaker 3:She's no, I'm not a Rosy Bridget, because it's a legitimate argument. What my counter to that is hip hop didn't have governmental intervention. If anything, they had senators. One, remember, luke, who is of Caribbean heritage, had to go fight for his first amendment, right, you understand what I'm saying. They were putting down CDs and cassettes and they're roll over them, right? So the government didn't help hip hop get it to where it was. The artists, them, come together, white, cut the Grammys. They supported Luke, they support you understand, they did that on their own.
Speaker 3:So to expect the Jamaican government to do that, for one, they were out of their depth to do that. Right, because they are considered a developing country, right, they did have, you know, like there, there were different things that would try to package culture. So, remember, reggae, sun splash was a thing for years. Right, that's how you got tourist dollars in. But if we look at the differences between dancehall, reggae, hip hop, michaela, we talk about this all the time. In music, even in acting, at some point the performer graduates to be the producer, the record label owner, to all these other things that show growth and maturity. We don't have that in dancehall and I don't like to use these analogies. Right, but you. You see how Andre Harold come up, you see how Diddy they they move from being artists to business. People or artists aren't really doing that and that's a clear difference. And that can't be government, because then the next thing you hear somebody jump on the tool. Government are intervening in a dancehall business. You understand, and so.
Speaker 1:I think the government enablement comes later. Right like now, I Wholeheartedly think that you know, jamaica should be seen as a as a music hub.
Speaker 3:They should be doing what South Korea is doing with K-pop, where they have entirely packaged their culture as a product and have have exported it period. That is where we should have been or should be, but here we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I'm not gonna belabor it anymore. I carry. You're absolutely right. I think your point is is is valid and and I stand corrected where that's concerned.
Speaker 2:I just, you know, I think my, my frustration comes out of the fact that we have so much Ability, so much more in us to Take our music further, and I don't know why we I Know why, you know it's frustrating me that where I feel like we're stifled, that we're limited and I Understand that there is a whole financial component, right, because here in America there are multiple record labels with deep pockets, you know, run by people who have billions of dollars, so they were able to go out and sign artists, do all this marketing and promotion and take them Internationally and make a ton of money, whereas Jamaica we didn't have that. We don't have that Infrastructure in place. You know, the labels that exist are local and they're limited in scopus to how far they can go. They would have to do deals with American record labels or European record labels or Japanese labels, whatever, to take it to another level. So those are some of the the things that that confined us or restricted us in terms of growth.
Speaker 2:However, I do think you know that uniting is something that we're capable of doing. You know, if we set our minds to it to grow, the music expanded even bigger. But I mean that I know that's a whole other show we could get into that. I'm not gonna take too much time away from this, but yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean. But even that is a parallel right, because you have a Island with you know Graphical limitations, and it's not for lack of these artists going elsewhere to make money. It's just that we've seen, we have examples of artists going to American or foreign labels and it didn't know what to do with the artists. Some people might say there's an artist right now where they lose them. We are an identity since them, the power, foreign label, and there is Always an artist like that for every decade. Right, we've seen it.
Speaker 3:But also, if American artists, hip-hop artists, everybody, remember the big Breakdown by left eye of TLC, right on how you make money right from one dollar, and if they didn't understand that and they were here and are of here in America, what is the Caribbean or the Jamaican artists going to understand with an American business? And so you have those limitations in different business practices as well. And so, again, business issues, artists understanding business issues and impacted by the business, and that impacts the art as well. So we saw that coming up for artists in both genres. The thing is like you said, the hip-hop artists were plentiful and they had the means to Find ways around the system. You know, with a year, make CD and sell it out. I like yarr or whatever you know the dance saw artists in Jamaica couldn't create them on press angle press to record and sell it. So it's.
Speaker 1:It was just a different, different Systems, but still battling similar things, which is ownership and I think I think our industry could have benefited at Taking advantage of all the growth that hip-hop had, especially in the 90s.
Speaker 1:Right, chris, you talked about and we're gonna come back to that the holistic approach to Hip-hop hip-hop not just rap, right, so that means clothing and brand deals, but there were plentiful people behind the scenes who understood the business side was Important and played their role. I think our genre really suffered from people who didn't know and people who who chose to take advantage Additionally. But we did get to that level and the, I would say, mid 90s to 2000s, because those collaborations, those record deals, however they happen, they do happen and they're still happening. But I think what's not super clear is how these deals are structured to Amplify not just the perception of being backed by a, a non Caribbean major or or production house, but those those connections have yet to be super fruitful, if you will. I think the most fruitful one that we've seen is Sean Paul and Atlantic when that deal happened.
Speaker 3:Good, before that Shabash.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would even say, I would.
Speaker 1:Right? I feel like no. I think that those, those two were Well there had to. Shaggy was a good stop, yes, and then Shaggy didn't have the run that Sean Paul had. Sean Paul had two to three albums consistent with a partnership that just did a lot. He did a lot In that five-year time span. He did any and everything. And then we have to talk about Rihanna, because remember all Rihanna bus and how she transitioned was completely different. Ponderiplay was her entry album and she completely shifted her sound.
Speaker 3:But Shaba had to exist for them to get Absolutely.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, no, no. From the phone I would have said Shaba would have gone clear. But you know, things happened.
Speaker 3:And also you had to think of the timing of what was happening, whereas both cultures, both music genres were accused of homophobia, but for Jamaica it was much deeper into the music and so that impacted the artists more than it would have impacted the hip hop artists. So those, those are like the bigger issues that were impacting the artists and the artists them, say yo, what we think? How are we thinking? No D and no guy, no guy, you know that type of thing. So again, similarities, but or artists were just not going to bow to that. So what I'm feeling, so what I'm not going to sing, whereas the hip hop artists, they could be like that.
Speaker 1:But not on record.
Speaker 3:Not on record and not so overtly as it was in dancehall culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, unfortunately we wore all these negative things on our sleeves way too much and it did hamper our growth. You know we said we said Shaba. You know I also remember Cabra, his deal and and and Patra, and these are all artists who I actually interviewed, like I spoke to on the radio. You know Shaba, cabra, bojo, you know me and my dad actually spoke to Bojo the year he came to New York and that whole controversy surrounding his, his song boom, bye, bye, and he was supposed when he was supposed to do a show at the Apollo and so forth, and you know it's. It's really one of those things where, as is the norm when you're creating something new, there are always going to be people who are challenging you, who are going to try to rip it apart and tear it down. The reality of it is music is an art form. It has always been an art form, it always will be an art form. Out of an art form there will come types of expression and beliefs and statements that we can agree or disagree with, just like when you look at a work of art, you know you may see a naked picture and one person will see it as pornography and another person will see it as art. You know we have to allow our minds to be open to various forms of interpretation and understand that if we want growth, if we want change, if we want, you know, to see something new and fresh, and you know we have to allow the room for the growth and the development and we have to provide the resources to educate, you know, the various artists so that they can expand the beyond their potential. You know that is what I'm hoping. I know some of that is being done now with the Jamaican Music Conference, I think returned. Was it last year? No, this year, this year, right this year. And so we want to see more conferences that are talking about the business of music and the things that you can do and all the other things that are available, so we can engage in these deals, these different deals that can bring us different streams of revenue from film, music, clothing and so forth.
Speaker 2:Because I feel like it's not too late for dance hall. You know, at one point I was feeling a little discouraged or whatever, but you know, reality is we're still young, we're still infants in the game. I don't think it's too late. I think we just have to really hunker down and focus on wanting to take it there. You know, because you know we see what Afro beats is where. It is because of dance hall, you know, and if they say, if they say otherwise, hey, we have a big fight.
Speaker 2:But I think, in other words, I do think Afro beats obviously came out of other forms of music, from Africa, from Nigeria, from Ghana and other parts of Africa, right, but a part of that, the infusion of that, is dance hall, is reggae. You know, it's infused in that you listen to the music, you can tell Hip hop. Same thing. It's undeniable. So we need to just, you know, get to a point where we can see what that next step is, you know, work towards it, so that we can be doing a show on dance hall. You know, 60 or whatever, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think the challenge with that is just the appeal and volume. People, the numbers, right, and you know, shaba, sean Paul has made it more comfortable for people to hear something in an accent or patois or whatever, right, but at the end of the day there's still that barrier. You know, in people understand what we're singing. You know so the songs that are really popular. If you look at what's played on the radio, you know, like during, you know that afternoon slots are the songs that have singing. There's clarity.
Speaker 3:But you know the similarities going back to hip hop and dance all and the similarities and differences it comes down to. And if we're looking at their growth and their separation of growth, but also what the other twin is taking from the other twin, the biggest thing is song clash culture, right, song clash culture. It's versus, it is the Red Bull, that's all. Song clash culture. Sting was. Is Menangah the Beaton Menangah argue with. You know, the biggest, like every artist was gonna show up at Sting. And then you look at rap battles. You know that's what Bounty and Beanie are doing. You know, like we have a art of that. How much clash, how much battle, okay, outside of Beanie and Bounty. You know, say, movado and Vibes Cartel, vibes Cartel and Assassin. You know, I said there was like a series of battles back and forth, panatrak, you understand. So that's embedded in the culture, but you also see it in hip hop in the early days of hip hop as well, with the battles with.
Speaker 3:You know, roxanne, roxanne and all of that, all of them, something that come out. You know what we called it in dance hall Counteraction, that's what we called it. And Papa San, lady G, fuller counteraction. Right, papa San, Singersong, lady G, come back. We don't do that as much. I think one of the more recent ones was the one with Cecile after she respond to Elephant man. Yeah, but it's like that is a culture. That's how we did battles, counteraction, and hip hop has the same thing clashes and counteraction.
Speaker 1:And sound clash. I think you guys both kind of touched on but didn't really go there. So I'm gonna I'll reserve my opinion after you guys, but I think that there's a sense that Jamaica and dance hall culture doesn't necessarily get the credit that it's due. What does proper credit look like to the genre, if you will? You know, chris, you brought up Afro beats and hip hop, kind of surpassing that. I'm challenging us Is that us just feeling away so fit with genre and go far? Or is there a way to truly pay homage and have they done that and then some, and we're just harboring a look of feelings?
Speaker 2:So I personally don't feel a way about it to say that we have failed. I just feel like we need to be more. We need to find a way to capture more, you know, in terms of territory. I think that if we were working more diligently and this is a criticism that people could come back and say, chris, you don't know what you're talking about, but I feel like if we were more diligent in working together, that we could have more of an institution in the music. What I do know is that and I will say this, that you know, afro beats, realistically, is coming out of a country, or a rather continent, right, that has way more people than Jamaica, right, way more ears, more resources, more everything to really get to the point it has gotten to.
Speaker 2:And though Afro beats may seem like it was just born or just burst onto the scene, it's been years in the making. It has gone through various iterations to get to where it is today, right. So I'm not going to make it seem like, you know, afro beats just come out to nowhere and take over. I know that it was years in the making. I know that there was a lot behind the scenes. There was various iterations to get it to the point where it's at today. I just feel like I would like to see us, as a culture in dancehall, grind harder to get it to where it needs to be. And by grinding harder I don't just mean working harder, I mean working more in concerts with, you know, producers who have integrity, artists with integrity, you know, record labels with integrity to help build this thing up to where it needs to be Now.
Speaker 2:And that's not to say hip hop has a lot of integrity. There's a lot of shenanigans that goes, that takes place in that business, but there was, there was a lot more to support the culture. So I think, you know, even even the consumers we as the consumers, also need to participate in that to ensure the growth of our music. Because right now, especially with streaming, when you look at it, you know there's so much that the artists don't get, don't benefit from right, so we're not buying music like we used to buy music anymore. And then the shows, the limitation of the shows. Are there enough shows for these artists to really showcase their talent, for them to make the money that they need to make? And the only ones that are making it are a select few that are making those big dollars. So there's there's a whole lot that I think needs to to change to see this dance hall as a culture continue to grow financially and culturally, for it to have some of the benefits that maybe can come close to what hip hop has done. I think.
Speaker 3:All right. So a Christian answer is it happens in hip hop, it happens in R&B. You're them bite my style and feel a way to say on a bite my style on a big food. After, on a bite my style, how much hip hop lyrics say yo, you bite my style? Like you know, even old school R&B artists talked about other artists biting their style and being successful off of it, and so a natural human reaction is to feel some type of way about it, right?
Speaker 1:So I feel away.
Speaker 2:I didn't answer I didn't answer.
Speaker 3:No, you gave a very diplomatic answer.
Speaker 1:No man, no because no, he didn't answer, he answered it.
Speaker 3:He's like yeah you know, but, but you naturally feel away. Now, that's the general populace. So last year when I had a conversation with someone I was like, yeah, you know, minnow, minnow come in musical knowledge, oh dear. So when somebody was like, yeah, you know, what are you talking about.
Speaker 3:I was like, yeah, look at all the people who started it. Yeah, and I started running down the list of the artists who are of Caribbean heritage, I was like, yeah, it's that song. And I said this whole thing about rappers don't write who you think they got it from. Dance off, because Josie Whale don't remember all of his lyrics, because he made up that thing on the spot when StereoGraph are on the rhythm and in the panda Mike, and he went to Jamaica every summer and saw that. So I can speak to those facts, not feelings. Facts. So I don't feel personally aware about it, I just understand the limitations of that.
Speaker 3:I think and a different conversation is why the genres that are and I think we talked about it on carry on friends with Danielle, the origin stories and being hung up on origin stories. That's limiting black music growth, because it is clear that black culture has a monopoly on just just culture, period. The thing is we can't bottle it and put a stamp on it, but everybody's biting it. So the same way we feel about it hip hop or feel away about the non black people who have Instagram called rap accounts and it's not run by nary one black person. Do you understand what I'm saying so everybody's feeling away when they feel like something that is their birthright, what they're entitled to is being bitten, chewed, swallowed, consumed and repackaged by somebody else outside the culture. So everybody feels away about it. So once you admit that, so the next thing is all right, let's move aside to go out. How all are we going to make some money and then have a bigger stake and ownership in the team? That's, our mouth is set.
Speaker 1:It's a lot, I think, as as the diaspora has grown Like, so now a lot of those artists are now second and third generation Dias, so there's less of a connective tissue, if you will. But we do see glimpses of collaboration, not as much as we saw in the 90s and early 2000s, and we may never we, I think to Kerry's point into Chris's point. We have to accept that that is is the case, but really figure out how these genres can stand on its own two feet and really Just Continue to grow in a progressive State. Because I think Like where we're still very a singles driven market, but we we've always been Right, whereas the rest of the music industry is catching up to what we always known, and we've known this but have never capitalized on the idea of being a singles driven like party Tyson. So my, my argument is is twofold yes, we feel away, but we have the the knowledge to turn it on its head and I think that's what we need to see.
Speaker 1:I think the artists are still basing their success off of traditional models of what they saw and not creating their own path Based on today's current market of things that have been successful and could be even more successful. The women are winning Particularly because they're good at engaging their core audience spice Shensiya, coffee Leela I like they. They have a connection with their consumers. That's what hip-hop is doing very well the men are not doing a great job at. They are post make, one post when they have an album and then everybody's just supposed to stream it, and that's just not Simply the case. You have to work and nurture your audience.
Speaker 1:She didn't see it as I have it. She had an album but her singles surpass Her, her, that's her catalog right, and and I think that she, even though she might not have progressed in the way that we thought she should have Right, but she still has a catalog in a career to this day and she still has longer to go, worthy of the ability to travel and connect with an audience. She connects with her audience the way that they want to be connected to, you said it.
Speaker 3:And last words, we're singles, driven, right, that is dance, all singles driven. And yo, when I need for us to bring back the rhythm period, when I need riddims.
Speaker 3:What is dance all without rhythms and that is how the people connect with it. So they may not know a song, but they hear a rhythm they like and then I go pop to it. Right, the the rhythms part is missing. Leaning to the singles culture. Right, leaning to what has worked. And you can't experiment with the new things, because the new things had worked for some of us and we like them. They came out good. But the essence of dance all is run the rhythm track bottom line. Because when everything, panna reading, everything hot Me no, no song becoming a no the rhythm. We grew up new in the rhythm. So if we know, said the walli reading, heartbeat reading, arab attack reading, we know all of them reading this. So once you're on a reading me, no, you're just no. Say you are one pundit. Yeah, sexy, carry like you're just no. Which time I come after they come after. They come after.
Speaker 1:That's what's missing music industry there's their superstars are Are getting further away from everybody else. Everyone is not going to be a superstar status, so I think the ability to Work within whatever your realm is is going to be super important, because it doesn't mean that you can still be successful. It's going to be hard to be Beyonce, but if you look at examples like a bad bunny or Even burn a boy, right Like they're, they're doubling down on their core and who they're and connecting to the audience and not necessarily worrying about Cross over or mainstream. And I think those are two really good examples of two, two musical artists who didn't necessarily completely change their sound. Bad bunnies Does interviews in Spanish.
Speaker 1:He doesn't do them in English and people still love him for who he is. Language is no longer a barrier, but we have to take and learn from the idea of commoditizing the culture and selling the culture as Individuals, and I think that we have that potential to do more of that. And I don't necessarily mean come back strong, but I just think we're in a a little moment of Trends. I guess you could say, while we don't have all the answers, it's important to have the conversation continue. The conversation Regga and Dan so will continue to grow and progress. So this, these conversations, are really just part of how they will progress, pushing the culture forward, pushing the music forward.
Speaker 1:But I would love to hear your thoughts. Please reach out to me on Instagram, at styling vibes, to share your thoughts and comments with me. And until next time, leah Tommy peeps. Thanks for listening to the latest episode of the styling vibes podcast. If you like what you hear and I know you do Share it with your friends and family. If you want more, make sure you visit styling vibes comm and follow us on our social channels, twitter and Instagram at styling vibes. Until next time, leah Tommy peeps.